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On the subject of Concorde space suicide looting!

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Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 19:13:33 I shall try and answer as best as possible. They were flying Reapers and one single Trasher who delivered the final blow. I was flying a Cheetah with no guns since I was flying in High-sec space. I have done that for more than 6 months now - nothing changed - and have NEVER been harrased before. Suicide killing is a relatively new idea, and it is being performed constantly! It MUST be fun! On the other hand, what fun is it to have kill rights for 30 days on ppl running a 14 day trial account? How much would they care if i blow their Reaper out of the sky a hundred times in those two weeks?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:17:00 - [2] Originally by: Malcanis Damb, it's as if you're playing in some kind of dark, dangerous, harsh and horribly corrupt environment where you can't trust anyone except yourself and a moment's carelessness can cost you everything. (And that's just hi-sec; in 0.0 you don't even have to be careless - just unlucky) I travel in 0.0 space on a daily basis. I have no problem in being shot to pieces there. In fact I enjoy it! High-Sec is a completely different story. There are two games in EVE. 0.0 is for PVP!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:18:00 - [3] Originally by: Malcanis Were you by any chance using the autopilot while you had valuable cargo in your hold? I am definately naive, but not stupid!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Corben Ei Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 19:13:33 I shall try and answer as best as possible. They were flying Reapers and one single Trasher who delivered the final blow. I was flying a Cheetah with no guns since I was flying in High-sec space. Did it have any tank? Where you using warp-to-zero? Originally by: Corben Ei I have done that for more than 6 months now - nothing changed - and have NEVER been harrased before. Suicide killing is a relatively new idea, Yes, 2003 is still pretty close, so it's relatively new in the cause of human history. Originally by: Corben Ei and it is being performed constantly! I thought you said you hadn't had any problems with this until now. You get ganked once, and now it happens CONSTANTLY? Originally by: Corben Ei On the other hand, what fun is it to have kill rights for 30 days on ppl running a 14 day trial account? If you feel they are circumventing the rule against recycling alts with negative sec status, I suggest you petition it. Originally by: Corben Ei There are two games in EVE. 0.0 is for PVP! No, there's just one, and PvP happens everywhere. Don't like it? WoW is datta way -----> /Ki We are not discussing what I should have done. I am pointing at a serious game balancing issue, that will destroy the game for everybody else than you PvP'ers. But thank you for your insightfull - and rather obvious - advice!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Malcanis Damb, it's as if you're playing in some kind of dark, dangerous, harsh and horribly corrupt environment where you can't trust anyone except yourself and a moment's carelessness can cost you everything. (And that's just hi-sec; in 0.0 you don't even have to be careless - just unlucky) I travel in 0.0 space on a daily basis. I have no problem in being shot to pieces there. In fact I enjoy it! High-Sec is a completely different story. There are two games in EVE. 0.0 is for PVP! A common misconception. In fact you are completely wrong. As Crumplecorn's pic (even if tainted by anime) hints: you agree to PvP when you undock. Hi-sec and 0.0 are both PvP zones; hisec being merely somewhat more regulated. In real life, the police don't stop people attacking you; they merely try to inflict consequences on those attackers. And EvE Hi-sec is a much, much less orderly, safe place then a nice western Terran democracy that still sees thousands of people killed and millions robbed every year. Fly in hi-sec as you would in 0.0 and you'll be fine. There is no wrong or right on this subject. There is only fact, and fact is that not everyone likes to PvP, and there should be room for those as well, or Tranquility will simply stop growing. JITA ppl would probably love that. I wont!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:47:00 - [6] Originally by: Malcanis Everything about EvE is PvP; whether combat, industrial, trade or whatever. That's the whole point of the game. It's as if you're complaining that you want to play football but without all the nasty pushing and shoving for the ball - can't the middle of the field be for the people who just like playing keep-up, with tackling, passing and goal scoring being restricted to the ends of the pitch? If you want to play keep-up, by all means buy your own ball and get off the pitch where people have come to play. The rules haven't changed since you subscribed; EvE was a PvP game when you joined; it's been a PvP game all the time you've been playing. Why should that be changed because this time you've been on the receiving end? If anything, I think the problem is that CONCORD is too effective at what they do. The savage and immediate response gives people the illusion of safety. But as I said: CONCORD are there to provide consequences, not safety. Only you can do that. I shall use this answer to comment in general. "EVE is all about Pvp!" - Answer: Yes! In the opinion of some players, it is. To others, the answer is no! Again. It is a fact that some players do not like PvP, and prefer other elements of the game to have fun. Let me put this a bit into perspective. As Col Kaos is hinting in his post on "EVE going downhill" there will be no place in EVE where resources and inventions will be made if Concorde space is not safe(r). There will be no advanced ships for sale, and an introduction of T3 will be a killer laugh since no-one but BoB will have the ressources and security to develop and produce it. I am sorry, but I am just trying to prevent this game from becoming a real killer bore!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Toria Nynys Originally by: Corben Ei I am pointing at a serious game balancing issue, that will destroy the game for everybody else than you PvP'ers. Eve is a player vs player game by design. It's a massively multiplayer game. Just about everything you do in game affects someone else in some way. I have it on good authority that suicide ganking has been with the game since day 1. You just happened to be flying a paper thin ship with 800M worth of loot on autopilot -- there are plenty of other equally stupid ways to lose that kind of money, and just as many ways to get the cargo there safely. People hang out on pipes leading to Jita scanning anything looking even mildly gankable. That's just the nature of the beast. Next time fit a tank and use WTZ. Your odds of being smacked down anywhere but inside Jita itself are very, very low. If you're hauling valuable cargo consider spending a bit more travel time flying a BC or a BS instead of something fast but one-shottable. It's pretty cheap to fit a megathron to take about 175,000 points of damage -- more than enough time for you to be saved by CONCORD from anything but an alliance-wide effort. And if you use a scout and verify that Jita has < 500 people in local your odds of making it into Jita 4-4 are pretty good too. You are absolutely right. EVE is a PvP game by design. But PvP is not only shooting each other up. There are numouruous other non-violent elements of gameplay in it as well. Some only fly agent missions! Some only mine! I fly in JITA every day in all sorts of ships. I have never been shot at in JITA! Is it particularly dangerous, you say?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Malcanis I can only assert that amongst those players who believe as I do are the developers themselves. You learned an expensive lesson about transporting expensive goods in the wrong ship. Or, rather, you should have learned that lesson. EvE isn't, as you say, much fun for those who decline to learn from, adapt to and overcome adversity - in much the same way that water polo isn't much fun for hydrophobes. I won't ask for your stuff, since it rather sounds as if you now don't have any. I'll just ask you if you're intend to sink or learn to swim? You still dont get it do you!? I have plenty of stuff left. I have learned a lesson too. I now know, that if that is to continue - if PvP killing is to take of in High-sec space, as it is hinted that it will - this game will kill itself. There will be no fun left in building anything. Everything will be chaos, and we will all be flying shuttles!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 19:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Malcanis Open up the map, go to world map control panel, stars, colour by, statistics, number of ship kills in the last 24 hours. Jita is usually one of the brighter spots on the map. Well! Completely missed that I'm afraid!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:03:00 - [10] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Corben Ei You still dont get it do you!? I have plenty of stuff left. I have learned a lesson too. I now know, that if that is to continue - if PvP killing is to take of in High-sec space, as it is hinted that it will - this game will kill itself. There will be no fun left in building anything. Everything will be chaos, and we will all be flying shuttles! Are you even reading what people are posting? Let me draw you a diagram: EvE 2003 ----> Invention of Suicide Ganking ----> 2004 ----> 2005 ----> 2006 ----> 2007 ----> You get ganked ----> NOW Do you see a picture emerging here? /Ki Yep! I do! I have played for 7 months, and I have never been suicide ganked before. Never heard of it before! Never seen it before! Still find it to be an exploit Get it?

Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Matroshka This has been going on at least since I started about a year ago and I have no doubt it was going on long before that. EvE will be fine. Thanks for your concern. Absolutely true!! Only, CCP has been cramping up on the PvP side stuff ever since, and Rev2 is another load of it coming up. It is now becoming so focused on PvP, that ppl preferring other elements of the game is being scared off - AKA Col Kaos post! You will get you PvP chaos allright! You will only be less ppl doing it!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:08:00 - [12] Originally by: Korizan I will agree that high sec is not perfectly safe but to some extent the rules places on the player in high sec tend to be more binding and constricting then 0.0 One simple fix would be to allow the agressor to be attacked by anyone in the agressies corp. In other words give people the ability to defend themselves in high sec. If you attack someone then you get an agression timer that allows anyone in your targets corp to attack you back. This would allow people to defend themselves. It is still not going to stop blob warfare or the 20 bS's attacking a freighter but that is a problem across the board and it will happen but giving someone the ability to fight back under self defense till the cops (concord) arrives is fair. One of my points exactly!! thank you!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Badhands Originally by: Corben Ei Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 19:13:33 Suicide killing is a relatively new idea /thread lose. Well, sir - I missed out on it completly in my 7 months of playing. To me it is as new as a babys behind!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Crumplecorn Well, sir - I missed out on it completly in my 7 months of playing. To me it is as new as a babys behind! That doesn't mean it's a new idea, that just means you're ignorant. That is just plain impolite!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Ki An Then you have been living in a box. Case closed. Nope. Sorry. Cant say that I have! Been there, seen most. Never heard of it before! Originally by: Ki An Doesn't matter what you think. I might think it's an exploit that people are undercutting me on the market. Doesn't mean I'm right. Again, if you don't like the game you are playing, WoW is over there -----> Wrong! It matters what I think. It matters what players think about a game. If it is obviously stupid, less will play it. Col Kaos post is a wittness to this! My opinion is a wittness to this. Originally by: Ki An Yes, but you obviously don't. Now, thats just plain impolite
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:51:00 - [16] Originally by: Crumplecorn Col Kaos' post is built upon almost as much fallacy as yours, so you should stop referencing it. Fallacy or not. I you dont make him feel any different about it, who cares what is right in your opinion. It goes both ways.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 20:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Santa Anna Wait, forum wars? I came here looking for forum *****s. I was all dressed up and everything. I feel misled. I am truly sorry sir. Cant say that I know of any wars. You must have taken a wrong turn somewhere!? I just see a lot of ppl missing a point. I guess thats it then for me!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:17:00 - [18] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 21:17:42 Originally by: Gnulpie To the op: petition those people. Any transactions to other characters can be traced and if they lead significant traces to some other eve chars then that char might get in trouble also. Oooh but I did, and received the obvious response. That is what was to be expected. As already noticed. I am definately naive, but not stupid! I am sorry to you all, but I am afraid that I will not be leaving my standing on finding this use of trial accounts an exploit!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:31:00 - [19] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 21:30:41 Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 21:30:29 Originally by: Warrio Subject A walks into the street. Subject A presses gun to head of subject B. Subject A fires. Subject B drops. Subject A is shot shortly after by police forces. Does this help subject B? Nope. Art immitates life s0n. lrn2play or L2P would be the way the cool kids say it I believe. Nobody pressed a gun to my head and fired! They burned my CAR and took my STEREO dude!!!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:35:00 - [20] Originally by: Crumplecorn This guy has a 99.9% Understanding resist. I know! The world is flat, and if you sail long enough, you will fall off the edge!

Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Crumplecorn This guy has a 99.9% Understanding resist. I know! The world is flat, and if you sail long enough, you will fall off the edge! So... have you come to the realisation that EvE is dark, nasty, unfair, brutal and treacherous yet? Does it make you want to keep on playing? If I had 40 million skill points and a load of T2 motherships in the garage, I would definately have it your way!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:48:00 - [22] You have a tag line saying "CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that." Can you state to me what "consequences" you are reffering to?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 21:53:37 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Corben Ei You have a tag line saying "CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that." Can you state to me what "consequences" you are reffering to? What game have you been playing? I am trying to make a point here, and you are making an effort out of not answering a perfectly clever question! What consequences did Concorde provide in my case?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:57:00 - [24] Originally by: Malcanis It's been my way since I had about 400k SP. I bought a shiney new Kestrel - I was so proud! - and accidentally wandered into lo-sec on my way to collect some launchers. Got popped. Realised (with the help of a good-natured convo from the guy who popped me) that it was my fault. Realised that EvE was enormously more involved and worthwhile than I had appreciated, and fell in love with the game. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not very good at shooting people. But I am quite good at travelling without being shot (when I'm not getting beer, that is). That's my main PvP and I enjoy it enormously. I also run a small 0.0 corp with some friends I've made in the game, and that's opened up a whole new dimension of the game for me. There are still wide areas about which I know almost nothing, and I LOVE that. I LOVE that I'll still be finding out new stuff in a year; making mistakes, making friends, making enemies. Learning. Looking forward to my 13,000,000th skillpoint in a week or so... I am really happy for you! And I totally get you dude! But you are still missing the point, and you are still not answering my question! What IS an exploit to you then?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 21:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Crumplecorn I would imagine they blew your attackers up. It's what they do. And what exactly feels like "consequence" to these guys in that?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Crumplecorn I would imagine they blew your attackers up. It's what they do. And what exactly feels like "consequence" to these guys in that? Who here said significant consequences? If you expect something to happen, and you do not loose anything from it, we are not talking "consequences" AT ALL! There are absoutely NO CONSEQUENCES for these ppl. There is no risk involved at all. AKA It is an EXPLOIT!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:07:00 - [27] Originally by: Malcanis They shot the crap out of the guys that popped your ship. As per the rules. It's hardly Concord's fault that you were using the wrong ship for the job. What do you want 'em to do? Shoot everyone else in hi-sec because you've undocked and want to feel safe? In hi-sec you have unrealistically instant and severe immediate consequences (Concordokken), and unrealistically lenient long-term consequences (a sec hit that gives scope for several such crimes after the 15 mins have elapsed). I'd be all in favour of doing away with the immersion-breaking instantaneously appearing magic pwnmobiles in return for a slowly escalating faction response; law breakers being attacked by a steadily increasing blob of police craft, so that they are eventually forced to leave that faction's space (Much Caldari cops would care about crimes committed in Gallante space). Real long-term consequences for breaking the law, varying with the crime committed. (Being kicked out of a system for a day for stealing from a jet can, up to permanent outlaw status for pod-killing) Keep concord-style effects to the 4 starter systems (or simply disable PvP in those 4 systems), and put a nice big non-ignorable warning on the exit gates of those places. You too are missing the point. There are ab****ely NO CONSEQUENCES for these guys. They were on TRIAL ACCOUNTS!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Crumplecorn That is not the definition of an exploit. Then pls tell me what is!?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 22:12:09 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Corben Ei You too are missing the point. There are ab****ely NO CONSEQUENCES for these guys. They were on TRIAL ACCOUNTS! Trial accounts are utterly inconsequential in and of themselves anyway, so... Finally we agree on something! Thank you! Pls re-read my top posting, if you have forgotten what this is all about!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:16:00 - [30] Originally by: Malcanis Setting up a specialised small-ship popping destroyer to kill untanked paper-thin covops carrying high-value cargos is definitely not exploiting. It's using game features exactly as intended. The fact that your attackers loss was much less than yours doesn't make it an exploit; it just makes it obvious that his choice of ship & setup was much better than yours. And we totally disagree here. Their loss was nill - zip - zero!

Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:19:00 - [31] Edited by: Corben Ei on 05/07/2007 22:20:13 Originally by: SiJira trial account abuse can certaintly be curbed though - that i do agree on What else do you find me "whining" about? Pls stop using that expression. Its just such a plain stupid way of making a conversation go off track!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Ki An That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. That was not my whining. Re-read my top-post. What you are referring to was merely a statement of an opinion! I still hold that opinion! But if you are forced to take consequences, PvP in +0.5 is fine with me. No result on re-submitting the Petition! Not so far anyway!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:42:00 - [33] Originally by: Ki An That's what we are arguing against, dude. Trial account abuse is already prohibited. If that's all that's bugging you, petition it again. In the answer CCP GM refers to the use of a trial account for this sort of action as a "legit game mechanics" so you are apparently wrong!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Ki An Reword it. It's not using trial accounts to suicide that is the exploit. It's recycling the alt when the sec status gets too low that is the exploit. Might be hard to prove tho. Try "impossible"! What I can prove is that I was shot down by ppl on accounts that are 4 days old, which were created at the same station, for apparently one purpose only.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Morhon I don't like the current Sucide gank trend but you have to face the fact that flying about with extremely expensive items in your hold in a covert ops ship and not bothering to use your cloak is kinda silly No! The fact that you can exploit a Trial Account in this manner is silly! If you had to face the consequences as the game mechanics are intended to (loss of status etc) you would not see so many attacks on ppl in high-sec! It is as simple as that!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 22:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Crumplecorn Most people aren't dumb enough to move gear in a ship that can be taken down by trial accounters. I simply cannot argue against comments like this! If you have still not understood that my point is that Trial Account suicides like this is an EXPLOIT and therefore should be banned or made impossible, you will not get it! Get it?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:10:00 - [37] Originally by: Crumplecorn So, yes it is unfortunate they don't have to face the consequences, but this doesn't have any major effect on the game. You are absolutely wrong! If they had to face consequences, these actions would lower to anything from a minimum to non-existing. There is a clear "rule" in this game - a game mechanism - that says that if you do that, you will loose something. Trial Accounts do not loose anything, and the loot is transfered to accounts that also loose nothing! It is a circumvention of a rule - a game mechanism! That is the definition of an EXPLOIT.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Morhon To be fair I think you would be just as miffed if they were not trial accounts. I don't see how making it impossible for trials will stop it anyway. Most of the people that scanned me were in cruisers or in ships that couldn't have killed me fast enough anyway. You do get 3 chars per account and for some it's worth the sec loss if there is a big fat pay out at the end of it. I would be annoyed as hell if I got blown up and lost all that isk, but I do get that empire isn't safe and switching on your AP is a gamble. I don't like it atall either but you didn't bother to cloak so I have less sympathy for you. Sorry. I disagree. Facing the consequences as laid out by the game mechanism rules will significantly lower the problem. And scanning you is not the same as shooting at you. You let the Trial Account do the dirty work for you.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Crumplecorn Yes, I do not disagree, it is an exploit. So you believe that exploits should be allowed as long as you believe that it has only minor effects on the game play? How can you seriously state, that this only has a minor effect on the game play? In my opinion this has a major effect on the gameplay, since 680 million worth of resources were blown to pieces today! Thats a serious loss of resources dude! They are - like - gone! In just this incident! How many do you think there are each day? How many would there be if it was banned?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:34:00 - [40] Originally by: Crumplecorn I'm not saying they should be allowed, I'm just pointing out that it is minor. The killing of your ship was not part of the exploit, that was completely legit, it was what was done afterwards which was the exploit. None of your loss was the result of an exploit. The only result of the exploit was the evasion of a sec status hit. Again you are completely missing the point I am trying to state. That this EXPLOIT (we thankfully finally agree on that) is available is seriously impacting the number of this sort of incidents in High-sec space. This will, in my opinion, have a serious impact on the economy in the game. Being able to only transport goods in big slow ships that can tank Trial Accounters simply takes the air out of trading in Empire, and the market mechanisms will eventually fail when enough ppl have been robbed that way and give up trading alltogether. And you want that T2 module as cheap as possible, dont you? What if nobody bothered manufacturing it any longer, since they cant transport it relatively safely any longer?

Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.05 23:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Crumplecorn The market is going to fail because people are going to be prevented from trading in small ships, and only the big ships will be able to continue operating? No. I am stating that they already are failing.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.06 00:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Hmm so big High school bully/jock style attitude trapped in a geeky lil nerd body that only comes out in forums and video games? o.O There is no point in getting personal. The matter is important as it is!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Roy Batty68 You know, all these side arguements are irrelevant. Here's what I get out of the OP and all the little snippets in between: I've got 800mil worth of cargo to move. How will I do it? - Use a tanked up BS? Nope - Use a stabbed hauler? Nope - Use a ship with as much tank as a paperclip? Oh hell yeah! How shall I fly it? - Use warp to zero? Nope - Use cloak up to gate? Nope - Maybe even fit an mwd and at least speed up my ap? Nope - Use autopilot and go afk? Oh hell yeah! Oh crap! I got ganked! What shall I do? - Re-evaluate the way I transport stuff? Nope - Rethink the way I fit my ship? Nope - Try at least a different way of flying the ship? Nope - Go to the forum and demand the game be changed because I got punked by people in noob ships? Oh. Hell. YES. Seriously. You got owned by dudes in reapers ffs. I think that disqualifies you from making *any* suggestions about how the game should change for at least... ever. I believe that this post takes the prize for being the most ignorant and irelevant of the lot so far. What I have heard so far is a lot of macho BS from ppl who deny to face the fact that doing a suicide mission on a trial account, and passing the winnings on to a paying account without any precautions or consequences for that character is a circumvention of ingame rule mechanics, and therefor must of course be conceived an exploit. It is really that simple ppl! The rest is just cake.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.06 15:49:00 - [44] Edited by: Corben Ei on 06/07/2007 15:53:25 Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Corben Ei I believe that this post takes the prize for being the most ignorant and irelevant of the lot so far. What I have heard so far is a lot of macho BS from ppl who deny to face the fact that doing a suicide mission on a trial account, and passing the winnings on to a paying account without any precautions or consequences for that character is a circumvention of ingame rule mechanics, and therefor must of course be conceived an exploit. It is really that simple ppl! The rest is just cake. Oh get over yourself. Yeah, recycling characters to suicide is well known as a bannable offence. And? Using trial accounts only becomes an issue if they are recycling the characters or account to get around security status. Got proof of that? No you don't. So what's the point? You are saving us from that "What will kill Eve" situation? Or maybe you are just making us all aware of that situation? Not hardly. I knew about this within my first couple months of play over a year ago. So what? It still doesn't change the underlying FACT that the only reason this whole thread exists is because you ****** up. There really isn't much else to say... The rest is just your wounded pride talking. Again a horseload of macho crap. Do you or do you not agree that it is an exploit? And if you do not agree, what is then an exploit to you? Is everything allowed you think? And fyi. I dont have a pride, so the only thing wounded here is EVE game integrity. Another question: When you play Monopoly at home, do you steel the hotels from your little sister when she is not looking?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 15:02:00 - [45] Originally by: Ki An That is beside the point, ffs! The PROPER way of dealing with this stuff is to petition it. I told him so, and I even advised him on what to say in his petition. I have NO IDEA what methods are at the GM's disposal when they investigate these matters, and frankly, neither do you. I am NOT DEBATING THE POINT that trial account alts shouldn't be used in this way, as I know that it is deemed as an exploit. That's all I am saying. As I have already made clear to you in a previous post, I HAVE partitioned the incident right after it took place, and received the answer from a CCP GM, that it is a legitimate action and within game rule mechanism to use trial accouncts on suicide missions. My entire post is an expression of my concern and unhappiness about this very fact! If there is no action taken on this matter I will regard it as an incident that has broken the game rule mechanism, and I will simply stop playing it. This is CHEATING! There is no fun in playing a game, where other players cheat. Play fair!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 17:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Ki An None of this will get you your stuff back, though, as suicide ganking, using a trial account or not, is perfectly legal. Hope this is clear now. 1. This is not about getting my stuff back. This is about stopping an exploit. 2. What you are saying is that it is ok to do it on a trial account, as long as you pay up after 2 weeks?
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 17:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Corben Ei Originally by: Malcanis Were you by any chance using the autopilot while you had valuable cargo in your hold? I am definately naive, but not stupid! Well now that we've heard from the people who ganked you, do you have anything you'd like to clarify about that statement, Mr AFK flies 800m of cargo in an untanked covops? Did you mean that it's not stupid to fly an untanked covops AFK with 800M ISK of cargo or did you mean to try and imply that you weren't stupid enough AFK and get ganked by reapers? Equiring minds want to know which kind of stupid you weren't! Not how it happened! What he is saying is not true. In fact, I have at no point in this thread told you what happened. This is what happened: I was lying perfectly still on the other side of a gate and my cloak did not go on as I pressed the cloak button - like I always do. I simply missed the button, as my attention was directed towards reading market data instead. I was playing with two other friends and we were all on earphones. Mine was at the desk though, so I did not hear that the cloak did not go on. When my ship was attacked I did not instantly react, since I did not think it was me being attacked but someone else near by. I just saw flashes on the screen. There were 3 gankers - not "4-5". WTF kind of a comment is that anyway??? Were you 4 or 5, or did you - 00whatever*****anonymouswriter - have anything to do with that gank at all!?!? I had just purchased goods for 780 milliion ISK and most of it was blown away. Whatever they got for the rest of it is none of my concern, but there was roughly 120 million worth of it looted from my wreck. I know this for a fact because I have the list of destroyed cargo in the kill mail. Claiming that 4-5 people got 190 million ISK worth of loot EACH out of a total of 770 million is just plain stupids. Believing it is even more stupid! Other than that the post is completely irelevant!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 18:19:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis By your own account, you weren't paying attention to what you were doing. Perhaps not AFK in a technical sense, but certainly with the same effect. Assertions as to the value of the cargo are meaningless from either side without killmails (and those can be edited anyway, and are a side issue in any event. Completely irelevant for the case at issue! Originally by: Malcanis All we have left is your speculation that these alts will be recycled. They were 4 days old. Rather obvious, dont you think! Originally by: Malcanis I presume that you've added them to your address book. In a few days, their trial period will expire, so you'll know one way or the other, I guess. Off course! And what would that fact change, exactly!? Originally by: Malcanis (BTW, sorry if you've already answered this question and I missed it; will you from now on be moving valuable cargo in a way that is not vulnerable to the mighty power of a destroyer piloted by a trial account..?) I will do it in exactly the same manner as I have done it ever since I had the ability to fly a Cheetah, and that will in no way whatsoever change my opinion that performing suicide killings on trial accounts is an EXPLOIT and that it should be banned by CCP.
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 18:33:00 - [49] Originally by: 0000 I'mAtTheTop Edited by: 0000 I''mAtTheTop on 06/07/2007 23:11:22 I would like to say, as one of the gankers that got in on this kill, he was autopiloting. We scanned him 1-2 jumps back, got in front of him, he landed 15km from the gate, and we blew him up. Our hauler snagged the loot and we got out for about 190m profit each. There were 4 or 5 of us. BTW, I didn't read pages 3-7 or whatever, it was too boring. Edited after I talked to my buddies on vent. 190m each not 100, and 4-5 of us. The fact that you are writing this with an anonymous account simply proves my point. You, my friend, should not be allowed to play this game: not by CCP, not by your mama, and in particular not by your dad since you are such a wuzz hiding behind anonymity and not taking responsibility for your actions!
Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.07 18:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Ho Masubi I believe the only way to fix this is to prevent trial accounts from transferring items or isk to other characters, plus prevent a trial account from been able to open another persons containers in space. Though this sounds harsh. At the very least it means that if someone suicide ganks then they will find it difficult to do it while on trial. Will not solve the problem. It doesnt have to be the trial accounters that loot the ship. Anyone can empty the can after the trial accounters have ditched the ship.

Corben Ei	Posted - 2007.07.09 13:37:00 - [51] Originally by: Ki An And, as I have already told you, the exploit lies in the recycling of suicide ganking alts. That is what is prohibited, and that is what you should petition. If the gankers keep their accounts then there is no problem. If they decide to discard them, the GMs will be all over it, provided the GMs know to watch them, which they do if you petition it. This is the GM response: "Unfortunately we at Customer Support, are not able to discuss or make any decisions in relation to game design. We therefore ask you to please post your concerns on the EVE forums for further discussion, as members of the Dev team constantly monitor the forums to get feedback and ideas from players." This is a rather strange response I think, since when you hit F12 it says: "If you need additional help regarding gameplay issues, are being harassed by another player, or wish to report an exploit, file a petition." ... Which is, like, what I did!???? ?

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